Jim’s Tech Talk
By Jim Langley
In the spirit of Thanksgiving – the giving part – please read what a longtime RoadBikeRider reader named David asked and see if you can offer any suggestions for him. If so, put them in a comment below this article.
As you’ll read, he’s looking for a new rig and he’s very specific about what it is. I put his wishes in list form below his note, so that they’re easy to see. I also provided some links and photos of a bike David now rides and also one he’s considering.
I sent David a couple of suggestions when I first received his message, but he asked if I would share this with you, which I’m doing here. He’s looking for something that I believe a lot of riders are interested in today so any advice we have for him should help other riders in the market for a new machine like his too.
David’s Request
Hi Jim,
Hope you can help with this question and feel free to use it in your RBR column.
I am looking for a steel or titanium endurance bike that uses and has external routing for mechanical shifting and caliper or cable disc brakes.
I want clearance for larger tires 30-35 mm, and a more relaxed, higher geometry, with no toe overlap. I would love a custom/boutique frameset but can’t afford that. I am going to transfer my mechanical Campagnolo 12-speed groupset onto this new frameset. I do all my own bike work, except chasing and facing (I don’t have the tools for that).
I have such a bike at the moment, an AllCity Cosmic Stallion GRX but it is quite heavy and I don’t ride gravel per se, just rough pavement and occasionally dirt roads. I would like a similar size but in a lighter material such as a Ritchey Montebello road bike or lighter if possible. I don’t want a carbon frame so maybe I already have a bike that’s as good as possible?
I also have a titanium Moots Vamoots CR road bike and love it (this link shows Moots’s newer model of David’s bike the CRD, but with my advanced years I would like to fit a larger tire and NOT worry about the toe overlap as I have lots of hardware in my body now that doesn’t want to hit the deck 🙂
For comparison, my Moots weighs 16.5 pounds and my AllCity weighs 23 pounds, both without a seatbag (mine weighs .75 pounds). I hope to have another decade or so of riding analog bikes including this new one if I can find what I’m looking for.
Thank you,
Dave
What David’s Looking For
Bike Type: Endurance Road
Geometry: More relaxed and higher position
Types of Riding: Roads, rough pavement, occasional dirt roads (not gravel)
Frame Material: Steel or titanium (a carbon fork is fine)
Components: He’ll use his Campagnolo 12-speed cable shifting and he wants cable or hydraulic disc brakes
Tire Clearance: 30 to 35mm wide tires
Other Details: Would like no toe overlap and a bike lighter than 23 pounds
My Quick Reply
Hi David,
This is a good time to be researching bikes like you describe because more people are entering the all-road, gravel categories with bikes that are more relaxed, comfortable and that accept wider tires. I’ll put your message out to our readers in the hopes that some have suggestions for you.
I only had time to do a quick search but here are a few ideas to start:
The company Co-Motion has earned their stellar reputation for well designed and great riding machines and they have a variety of options in all-road and gravel.
Here’s a link: https://co-motion.com/collections/single-bikes/products/cascadia.
Chumba is actually a new company that popped up in my search. They offer steel and titanium bikes, which accept tires up to 50mm wide.
Here’s a link: https://chumbausa.com/made-in-usa-gravel-bikes.
Also, I didn’t check their latest models, but have you tried Surly? They have a great reputation so I imagine you looked at them already. They do change their bikes up so maybe they have something new? A bike I’m a little familiar with that gets nice reviews is their Surly Straggler gravel bike (photo).
Here’s a link: https://surlybikes.com.
I hope something here is helpful and that we receive some solid leads from our readers too. Thanks everyone for weighing in with your advice for David.
Jim Langley is RBR’s Technical Editor. A pro mechanic & cycling writer for more than 40 years, he’s the author of Your Home Bicycle Workshop in the RBR eBookstore. Tune in to Jim’s popular YouTube channel for wheel building & bike repair how-to’s. Jim’s also known for his cycling streak that ended in February 2022 with a total of 10,269 consecutive daily rides (28 years, 1 month and 11 days of never missing a ride). Click to read Jim’s full bio.
What’s an analog bike?
Great question syborg, I should have attempted to answer that in the intro, but I’m not 100% sure what it means – it may differ to different cyclists too. My best guess is that it means a bike that doesn’t have electrical shifting and possible a bike with no electronic devices at all, such as watt meters, computers and so on. I think it’s used for ebikes also, though I could be wrong there. I imagine a lighting system would be acceptable.
Maybe some other readers with a better understanding of this term that seems to be coming up regularly now, will share their thoughts on it and educate us.
Thanks for asking
Jim
same as ‘acoustic bike’
wait = no
that means ‘non-ebike’
weird
from guitars
analog i think means nothing electronic like shifting
i think
or maybe not carbon
I understand “analog” to refer to a regular bike, as opposed to an ebike. I’ve also heard “acoustic” used for regular bikes as well, to distinguish them from ebikes.
Thanks Stan!
A simpler and more accurate definition is: Has a motor attached to pedals=moped. No motor+bicycle. Giving the definition of a moped a free pass by calling them a ‘bicycle” only obfucates the reality. They’re profoundly different machines.
I’ve had both Surly and CoMotion steel bikes in 58cm. They are bulletproof but unlikely they will make your weight cut. As an aside, the Surly got sucked up in a tornado and my son found it several blocks away. Front wheel was trashed but only one dent in top tube. Still running but still heavy.
Try Lynskey titanium bikes. I have one and love it. Endurance set up, takes 30mm plus tires, quick and plenty responsive. Smooth titanium ride. And they have sales.
Yes, Lynskey. I have (sort of) two. My old Litespeed Vortex, now my roller bike, has David Lynskey’s signature on the left chain stay, and the Lynskey has his signature on the left seat stay. The Litespeed has 160K road miles plus probably 40K roller miles. The Lynskey has over 100K road miles. Titanium is forever.
Check out Sevencycles.com. They build to order based on customer wishlist and results of fitting numbers and deliver a custom bike in just a few weeks. The website has a checklist order form. They build everything from road bikes to fattys!
I love my Lynskey GR400 and it will take up to 50 mm tires. However, toe overlap is an issue even with the 40 mm tires it came with.
Has he looked at any Lynskey frames? I have a GR260 which meets at his requirements but might be a pound or two heavier than what he’s after.
An analog bike is indeed your classic bicycle. It’s the epitome of mechanical simplicity, propelled solely by human effort – no batteries, no motors.
This change in nomenclature comes with the rise of electric bikes or “e-bikes.” As these high-tech rides grow in popularity, we needed a term to differentiate them from the traditional, human-powered bicycles. Hence, the term “analog bike” entered our cycling lexicon.
He seeks a unicorn. As steel goes, some All City bikes can be pretty light (a friend races hers). Consider… A frame/fork is build for either disk OR rim brakes. One should not switch between them. Although I have a Masi Commuter bike “converted” to Camph 10-spd (and enough clearance for at least 700×40 with rim brakes), it has rather strange geometry and is a bit on the heavy side. I hate it that Ritchey states that is bike is pretty much for Shimano electronic.! Finally, if weight is an issue, why is aluminum not being considered?
I agree with you that aluminum bikes should be considered, as they’re enjoying somewhat of a renaissance. Newer forming techniques permit designs that weren’t possible back in the day. Trek and Specialized in particular are making some interesting Al bikes.
I don’t understand your comment about not switching between disc and rim brakes. I’ve had rim brakes on all of my road bikes – and have no intention on switching – but I regularly jump on a disc-equipped gravel bike or MTB. It’s never been an issue.
To handle disc brakes, the front fork and rear stays need to be engineered for the additional stress. One bike builder told me that building for disc brakes adds about two pounds over rim brakes.
I agree with above regarding consideration of Lynskey bike frame. I don’t think weight will be more than one or two pounds lighter than his current bike. In order to get light weight most likely will need to go with something like triple butted titanium frame like top level Seven Evergreen. My recommendation if cost is acceptable. I rode a demo model and it was impressive.
For David,
It may be heavier than you would like, but it sounds like a bike from Rivendell (Walnut Creek CA) fits your description. They are classic frames, lugged steel. Disclaimer, I have one and love it, but I don’t have the feeling that I need to buy the newest frame, gear, etc. I get compliments on my bike all the time, I have a Rambouillet model which is not offered anymore. I ride because I enjoy being out, usually by myself, to give you some context. Grant Petersen (owner frame designer) advocates a larger frame and more upright riding position. The bikes are designed to take larger tires, depending on the frame you choose, and carry light loads. I’d recommend at least taking a look, read Grant’s rants, oops, blog comments (he is rather strongly opinionated) you may like what you see. When I bought mine I had my daughter drop me off so I could ride it home (about 45 miles). good luck finding your new bike.
The Ritchey Montbello already mentioned would be one of my first investigations. Tom Ritchey seems to know how a steel bike should ride and manages to consistently design them that way.
I think your request for no toe overlap is going to be the toughest to satisfy. Since overlap varies for top tube length, crank length, shoe size, cleat placement, and tire size, we really don’t have enough information to make a valid recommendation.
You’ll want to calculate and compare front center dimensions, but you probably already know that. I know you ask for a “road bike” but “gravel bikes” generally have slacker head tube angles that translate to longer front centers. Some compromise may be necessary.
I personally prefer Soma to Surly among steel bikes. I ride a fully analog Soma Double Cross disc which was built up with components passed down from my event bike when that bike got electronic shifting. It has clearance for my 650b x 42mm tires with full fenders. It feels responsive and fun on pavement as well as gravel. Although I use it primarily for commuting, I have also taken it on 200k and 300k brevets when my event bike was indisposed.
Thanks everyone for helping David out, great suggestions and advice!
Jim
I recommend the priority gemini which meets many criteria. as I age I have changed my criteria. I an very rush averse as I have upgraded hardware as well. I didn’t ride in groups, don’t go fast, didn’t care if my bike is a little heavier, slower etc. the belt drive has a service interval of 6k miles so he might expire before he has to do any maintenance. I prefer to ride my bike rather than work on it.
I suspect this will get some raised eyebrows, but I have two generations of “Motobecane” titanium LeChampion titanium bikes from Bikesdirect and couldn’t be happier. Explored other comparable Ti bikes and even returned a new Lynskey at one point. My latest LeChampion takes a max of 40mm front and 50mm rear. Check them out.
I have one of their Ti hardtails, which are built by ORA, a highly-regarded Taiwanese Ti builder. They’re not fancy, but you get a LOT of bike for the money. It’s essentially like buying a frameset and getting a nice groupo and finishing kit for free.
That said, Bikes Direct doesn’t sell any Ti bikes with rim brakes or mechanical disc brakes. I’ve never heard anything good about mechanical discs, so I wouldn’t go there.
They mention framesets, but I didn’t see any on their site.
I have a Rivendell Atlantis. It is very laid back and has massive tire clearance. It is my best bike for an all day ride. It is very steady and stable but not nimble. it was designed for heavy touring and the steel frame will not make the weight requirement. Breezer is making modern steel frames but probably won’t make the weight either. Titanium is probably the choice, but spendy.
The Riv Roadini is a very nice option. Lighter weight, sportier geometry, tire max 38-42 mm.
Try Rivendell Bikes
Look into Seven Cycling custom titanium bikes! Not sure they are doing bikes with mechanical shifting anymore, though. They are worth a look, anyway?
Because David mentioned he was interested in titanium bikes and several readers commented about Lynskey titanium bicycles, I wanted to pass along to David that Lynskey is holding a sale on their ti bikes right now (as of today Thanksgiving). Something you might want to check out David.
Thanks and happy Thanksgiving everyone,
Jim
The most difficult part of David’s request is speccing a bike that won’t have toe clip overlap. It’s possible but requires measuring his current front-center then determining his minimal f-c length and finding that figure am0ngst frame specs. Sounds like you need another whole, long article to explain this, Jim.
The suggestions for titanium bikes or a Rivendell seem like the best options, but I’ll suggest building up a nice old Raleigh International (early to mid 70’s), just because it might be fun! I’ve got one, and the chrome lugs and “flamboyant” copper paint are a joy. Mine is more of a fair weather bike, and I can see where having a titanium bike would be nice on the wet days. Sounds like a fun project!
Any old top end steel (Reynolds 531 or equivalent) race bike from the late 60s, early 70s will do nicely. I have a 1971 Bob Jackson w/full Campy, 32 mm tires. 1971 Masi w/full Campy, 30 mm tires. Later years gets you twitchier geometry and MUCH narrower tires.
Great idea Steve! I had an International too. Sweet riding bikes!
Thanks!
Jim
I’ve done that a couple times and, yes, it’s fun. But he’ll have to stretch the rear triangle to fit a wider modern hub. And it’s rim brakes for sure..
Fairlight Cycles Strael or possibly the Secan would fit your needs nicely. A friend has a Strael and loves it more than the carbon bike he also owns
From what I know (and as a musician), the opposite of “analog” is “digital”, which doesn’t really work for bikes. So maybe a more correct word for the bicycle opposite of electric might be “manual”…or maybe “human powered” . . . just sayin’
Thanks for explaining the analog digital connection Roy, appreciate it.
Jim
In the grand cycling tradition of naming things for what they aren’t, may I suggest “unplugged”….;-)
Newer, lightweight steel bikes made by Waterford and Gunnar (same company, more and less custom) are available used (look on ebay or other sites). High quality frames weighing less than 4 lbs. A full bike can be around 20lbs if you use lightweight components, like your Campy groupset Great road feel and ‘planing’ (look it up on Rene Herse), plenty of tire clearance for 42, or 38 with fenders. My Gunnar Fastlane is 10 years old and feels like the day I got it. I enjoy tires with supple sidewalls for their ‘stick to the road’ yet light feel.
Big fan of Linsky. I ride a ~30 yr old Ultimate and a Masi CX steel and at 80 find them both to be recommended.
If David can afford a Moots, there are any number of GREAT, frame builders that could make EXACTLY the frame for him @ that price point or less.
Rock Lobster [Paul Sadoff]
Rick Hunter
Caletti
Falconer
Rick Hunter
Black Cat
Having once lived and cycled in Pennsylvania’s Amish country, I refer to non-ebikes as “Amish” bikes. The Amish back then were prohibited from using modern technology and were frequent users of non-motorized bicycles. In rural Pennsylvania bicycles were the popular means of transportation for the Amish along with old fashioned scooters that you stand on and push off with one of your feet. I haven’t been back to Pennsylvania for a while but after having recently bicycle toured in Sarasota, Florida that reference is probably no longer applicable as all the Amish we encountered in Florida were on e-bikes.
Hey there. If I am understanding correctly, this guy is looking for steel or titanium that is lighter than 23lbs, has no toe overlap, and also not boutique brand price? If those requirements are accurate, there will only be a small number of frames that check all of those boxes. Surly and Soma will likely weigh similar to what his current All-City weighs. It’s also difficult to compare frames without knowing what his current frame set weighs and also companies don’t necessarily disclose frame weights. Toe overlap can be corrected/adjusted with a good bike fitting. Steel or titanium that weighs less than the All-City that come to mind are Stinner frameworks select series, Lynskey, and Litespeed. The Stinner frameworks select series uses Columbus Zona tubing and is American made at a similar price point to steel frames made overseas. The Litespeed and Lynskey have competitive pricing and the weight will likely be less than a similar size All-City. As the weight goes down, the price goes up. Gunnar, Waterford, and Co-Motion make outstanding frames that will likely be lighter and more expensive than what the All-City originally cost. Wilde has some frames made overseas and some American made frames. Their American made frames will likely be lighter than the All-City, and their overseas frames will align weight wise and price wise with the All-City. Something else to consider is wheels. A lighter and stiffer wheel set will possibly shave weight off the All-City and save some money. A good fitting and a new wheelset might check a couple boxes. A bit redundant, but Co-Motion, Stinner Frameworks, Gunnar, Waterford, and Wilde will have lighter American made frames lighter than the All-City. Stinner Frameworks has a select series frame that is American made at a price point to compete with overseas made frames. They have a custom series frame that is lighter and more expensive. Wilde has American made lighter weight frames and they have overseas made frames that are cheaper and heavier. The current iteration of Gunnar being produced out of Durango, CO is a lot of bang for the buck. A good fitting may take care of the toe overlap and a lighter wheelset may shave some significant weight off his current All-City. I would recommend some thorough research and then decide from there.
Waterford went out of business (owners retired with no buyers) some time ago.
Also consider Rivendell
Keep the cosmic stallion.
Put some road wheels on it and go ride.
Another metal bike isn’t going to be that much lighter. My steel road bike is about 18 lbs and cost me a fortune to get it down from 21. The only change that occurred was that I happened to get stronger during the time I spent upgrading it.
Either build up a 15 lb carbon race bike (which I also did) or just enjoy a steel heavy weight.
Spoiler alert, steel heavy weights are way more fun.
I have a lightweight top of the line carbon Dura-Ace Di2 bike w/38mm tires, and a 1971 Reynolds 531 Bob Jackson w/32 mm tires. Much prefer the Bob Jackson (except for long steep climbs…)
Perhaps a Habenero cross/touring frame would work.
Good luck with the search.